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The JKD Professor
An Interview With Gary Dill
Conducted by Paul Bax
What was your initial attraction to the martial arts?
Dill: For self-defense...I started when I just turned 17.
Did the philosophical side and or discipline that came with the arts interest you much?
Dill: Not at the time that I began taking karate and jujitsu in December 1963. I only wanted to learn how to kick someone's butt. But as I grow older now and hopefully wiser, I realize that the philosophical aspects of the martial arts are very important to my overall development. Of course I work on the combat arts, my yang side, on a daily basis, but I also now work also on my yin side, utilizing internal energy and chi breathing. I now try to balance out my warrior spirit with both types of training.
How did you first find out about James Lee and Bruce Lee?
Dill: I found out about Bruce Lee when I first saw him as "Kato" on the old GREEN HORNET television series in 1966, then later Black Belt magazine came out with a two part series on Bruce confirming his authenticity in gung fu (1967). I first found out about James Lee when I was in Vietnam and read about him in the old Karate Illustrated magazine (1971) in an article titled "Special Gung Fu Training Devices." The article indicated that James was teaching a JKD class in Oakland, CA and I knew that is where I was going to be relocated to upon my return from Vietnam.
After surviving Vietnam, do you feel JKD could have been a welcome ally in your daily battles over there?
Dill: JKD was developed strictly for combat utilization, and it will always be an asset to any member of the military.
After being invited to train with James Lee, how did your first training experiences in JKD change your perspective of classical martial arts?
Dill: My perspective of classical martial arts had already been changed years earlier when I saw "Kato" on TV and subsequently read articles about Bruce Lee in martial arts periodicals. Bruce had already influenced me by the time I had found out about James Lee. My interfacing with James gave me the technical know-how, whereas Bruce's writings had already given me the philosophical mind-set. But let me add this...James Lee's JKD class was so accelerated, so intense and so much in tune with combat...one would learn more in one month than many would learn in a year or more in a classical martial art. When I started training under him, I thought I had died and went to martial arts heaven. It was the best martial arts training that I had ever obtained.
Describe how JKD differed from your previous martial arts instruction.
Dill: In 1963, I started taking karate and jujitsu, and in 1964 I switched over to Goju karate under Hanshi Lou Angel. I really enjoyed the hard-core sparring that went down in the '60's in Oklahoma and Texas. I hated to do the katas, but they were a necessary evil for promotion. In those days (the "blood and guts" days of Texas/Oklahoma karate) there was no sparring equipment or gloves. Everything was bare hand and if you wanted to score a point, you better really make some serious contact. I was fortunate to have Lou Angel as my martial arts and sparring mentor, for he was and still is one mean fighting dude. Grandmaster Angel made me one of his karate instructors in October 1965 and I did karate until James Lee accepted me into his exclusive JKD garage class in Oakland in 1971. Of course, JKD was very combat orientated, and I took to it immediately because of my background in the rough karate sparring of the '60's. And what was really great about JKD, there were no katas.
Describe a typical JKD class conducted by James Lee.
Dill: Classed under James Lee were one hour in duration, meeting twice a week. We started class with a formal salutation, spent several minutes loosening up and then jumped immediately into learning and practicing techniques that he had taught us that evening. There were no breaks, no water.... it was one hour of concentrated working out. And you had better keep up and try hard. James had no time for tire kickers and slackers; keep up or get out. I had seen them come and go during the time I was there. James Lee was a nice guy but he took his JKD seriously and he expected you to do the same. Classes were held in the garage of James' house and he always had that garage door pulled two thirds down so no one could gawk in when we were working out. So in order to enter the garage, we had to literally crawl in under the door. It helped to develop humility and deflate those of us with egos. There were no uniforms, no gi, no hifu - just wear what you had as long as you could work out in it. We all wore shoes and a couple of guys even wore combat boots. We ended the class with a formal salutation.
When you left Oakland, you spoke with James about carrying on JKD and he provided you with a lesson plan. Can you give us some more insight into this?
Dill: Yes, he sent to me a three page typewritten outline of JKD training and wrote on it that it was a good 18-24 months of training if taught properly. He also included 12 of his small red "Introduction to JKD" booklets, which he gave to his new students when they were accepted into his garage class.
Was James protective over the secrets and teachings of JKD?
Dill: No I don’t think so. There were no "secrets". He was just very cautious about to who he taught JKD. He was looking for serious, open-minded students, who would give him 100% during the JKD workout.
James Lee was as much of a philosopher as Bruce. What philosophy did he incorporate into his daily class?
Dill: James frequently spoke of the importance if developing the "killer instinct." He said that one could never become a true JKD man unless he had the "killer instinct." I just got back from Vietnam - I understood what he meant. And what is "killer instinct"? It is the ability, the desire to take out a person who is threatening you and to do it without hesitation, without any afterthought. To "take care of business" without any remorse. That is my definition of "killer instinct." James Lee never defined "killer instinct." He would say that you must find your own definition and when you did, you would know it. More on "killer instinct": to be able to professionally, without any emotion, coldly eliminate your enemy and not lose any sleep over it.
So, as far as Zen and finding a better understanding of life in general, this was not present in the teaching?
Dill: As far as my jkd group, James never got into Zen. The focus of the training was for combat application.
Did you ever spar James Lee and was sparring a normal practice at his school?
Dill: I don't know what happened before I got there in June of 1971 but James told me that he would not allow sparring in his class because of the possibility of lawsuits in case if injury. We were expected to spar on our own time. James taught the technique, it was up to us to put it together. He did not hold our hands. We were expected to workout quite a bit on our own.
Did you have classmates from James garage you worked out with in private or former classmates in other arts to sharpen the skills James taught you?
Dill: The guys in my jkd group never interfaced. We all had different lifestyles, etc., but we did share the same interest of learning jkd. I trained in jkd while I was in the navy. During that time, I also had my own martial arts class comprised of primarily navy and Marine Corps personnel. I had my own office, and would work out several hours everyday using my own students as my workout partners in jkd. Thanks to the US Navy, I was practically a full time jkd practitioner all of the time that I had trained under James. After every class with James, I made detailed hand written notes on each technique and or drill that he taught that night.
Every aspect of JKD contains non-telegraphic movement. For the novice JKD enthusiast, can ou explain the importance of this concept?
Dill: To put this in easy to understand terms, usually to "telegraph" is when one engages in a movement such as chambering a punch or kick before executing that technique. Anytime one telegraphs a technique he is using body language to advise his opponent that he is preparing to attack. Consequently, in JKD, you learn to kick or strike the opponent without telegraphing your intentions and not tipping off the opponent of an impending attack.
It has been said that the Oakland school didn’t have sensitivity training.
Dill: Wrong. Oakland did engage in sensitivity training. Many of our hand techniques were presented from a one arm, wrist touching, don chi position.
But, did James ever teach Chi sao? Also, was there a wooden dummy at the Oakland school?
Dill: Here is an interesting story. James taught my group two hand Chi Sao for about 2-3 classes. He asked us if we "understand" the concept of the two-hand Chi Sao training. Of course we all said "yes". Then the surprise statement, "Good! Because you will never work on it anymore." He told us that Bruce felt that Chi Sao was not time efficient or had enough combat applicability, and Bruce said to phase it out of the Oakland curriculum. Remember, this was towards the later days of James and Bruce in 1972. Allen Joe calls me the "pup" of the Oakland jkd because he said I was the last of James's students, and thus I had the knowledge of the latest changes that were made at the Oakland school before James died.
James definitely had a "mook jong" wooden dummy in the garage school. It was located on the wall opposite from the garage door. He used old fashion car springs across the back of the mook jong in order to give it the bounce. He had us to work on it frequently as well as other JKD training equipment he had made.
The political atmosphere in JKD has always existed in the midst of controversy. Why do you feel JKD practitioners and their instructors have such a hard time getting along?
Dill: I got my own ideas, which I will keep to myself. At this stage in my life, I am not wanting to get involved anymore in the bickering, backstabbing, and bad mouthing which seems to be a mainstay in JKD. I will do my thing, my JKD, and leave me alone, and they can do their thing, their jkd, and I will leave them alone. I have tried several times during the last 5-6 years to do my part to promote the concept of harmony and unity within JKD (as it was most aptly phased by Taky Kimura, who is the true gentleman of JKD.) But after a while, one just gives up, and moves down his own path, with his sword unsheathed. I don’t think that there will never be a unity in JKD, the demise of the JKD Society in the '80's and the JFJKD Nucleus just in the last couple of years, reflects that. But in all fairness, this type of political infighting is prevalent among all of the martial arts. It is nothing new, and the JKD community didn’t invent it.
Tell us about the creation and existence of your JKD Association?
Dill: The JKD Association was formed in 1991 for the purpose of preserving and maintaining the original JKD; to provide a structured, organized training format for JKD and to utilize a professional certification and instructor development program. We presently have 27 schools, 4o instructors and host seminars from coast to coast, as well as 3 Oklahoma JKD training camps every year.
Bruce Lee's life and legacy has come under fire recently with the release of Tom Bleecker's (Linda's ex-husband) UNSETTLED MATTERS. What are your thoughts on this book?
Dill: I read Tom's book and found it to be very interesting. I cannot verify or judge authenticity of the book, for I did not run around with Bruce, nor did I live with him. Each person much forms his or her own opinion just as in any non-fiction publication.
SDS JKD retains many of Lee's original principles yet adds concepts from other arts. How do you feel about those who teach strictly Bruce Lee's methods and those who favor JKD CONCEPTS, which may or may not incorporate any of Lee's original teachings?
Dill: To each his own. I know what works for me. I am not going to criticize others because they may not walk my path.
When James Lee explained JKD, what origins did he claim the art's roots were derived from?
Dill: Wing Chun Gung Fu, Western boxing and Fencing. Period.
Was there any talk of 26 or 27 different arts comprising JKD?
Dill: Never.
James Lee was a man who explored several arts himself. To your knowledge, did he have an interest in Kali, Escrima or Silat?
Dill: To my knowledge he had no interest or training in these arts. Remember these arts did not begin to get notice on any large scale until years after Bruce and James died. At the time that I was training with James, from my observations, James was only into
JKD as it was developed by Bruce from wing chun, boxing, and fencing.
Did he teach any other arts at his school in Oakland?
Dill: Only Jeet Kune Do.
How did you first hear of James Lee’s death and how did his passing affect you?
Dill: I did not know about it until I read about it in Black Belt magazine. Of course, I knew James' days were numbered when I left Oakland and returned back to Oklahoma. And I knew that I would never see him again. So I wasn’t surprised, but still I was upset because he did so much for me. He was a great guy, and a true warrior.
Do you still keep in contact with Greglon Lee (James Lee’s son)?
Dill: NO!
Finally, what do you personally hope to contribute to JKD?
Dill: I want to preserve and help promote the techniques and philosophy of JKD as it was developed by Bruce and James Lee, and the way it was still taught when they were alive. And also to do my part in keeping the memory alive of both Bruce and James, for they were great men, who did great things.
I try to do this by through the Jeet Kune Do Association, teaching seminars and camps, and teaching my own small exclusive classes and private training of sincere students who truly want to learn the essence of JKD.